WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.550 --> 00:00:08.680 Hey folks, welcome to another episode of the science of scaling podcast. 00:00:08.830 --> 00:00:10.330 I'm your host, Mark Roberge. 00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:16.009 In this podcast, we study scaling, scaling revenues, scaling sales. 00:00:16.350 --> 00:00:20.990 There's reams of research that shows we're not very good as an ecosystem. 00:00:22.030 --> 00:00:24.780 We've got a lot better on product development, but on this scaling 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:26.030 piece, we've got a lot to learn. 00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:29.979 And I love in this podcast to bring in those who are the world's best. 00:00:30.229 --> 00:00:33.889 The folks who have successfully scaled the unicorn sales teams across tech. 00:00:34.530 --> 00:00:38.080 Today we talk to Doug Adamek, CRO at Brex. 00:00:38.420 --> 00:00:39.260 This is going to be fun. 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:44.850 He spent 16 years as CRO at Concur and managed them through 00:00:44.869 --> 00:00:47.009 the eventual acquisition at SAP. 00:00:47.090 --> 00:00:50.580 He is one of the best at building teams to sell. 00:00:50.850 --> 00:00:52.170 Financial software. 00:00:52.860 --> 00:00:56.290 So he's come in with an interesting challenge here at Brex. 00:00:56.650 --> 00:00:58.560 You know, they're around, I don't know, 50 million in revenue, 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.020 450 employees where he came in. 00:01:00.070 --> 00:01:04.860 He, at the time, had grown his business to 3, 500 employees and 3 billion in revenue. 00:01:04.860 --> 00:01:06.520 And that's the mission that he has. 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:13.080 He's got to transform the way they sell to sell more complex deals to more complex 00:01:13.080 --> 00:01:18.970 buyers We're gonna get right on the front line and ask him how he took a 27 year old 00:01:18.970 --> 00:01:24.179 Transactional seller and taught him to be a high performing strategic account exec. 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.090 Let's get into this episode 00:01:30.030 --> 00:01:38.725 Brex Started out as a credit card company for startups and their disruptive value 00:01:38.744 --> 00:01:44.854 proposition was the fact that they had an underwriting model that allowed an 00:01:44.854 --> 00:01:49.975 organization to be able to get credit against a bank account versus their. 00:01:50.275 --> 00:01:56.575 Personal guarantee, and that's very, very desirable for founders starting out. 00:01:56.615 --> 00:01:59.985 However, I don't think that Brex recognized what happened 00:02:00.034 --> 00:02:02.295 if they did do this correctly. 00:02:02.315 --> 00:02:07.594 And the cohort of organizations did grow, they grew up on Brex, and 00:02:07.595 --> 00:02:10.995 now they have to divorce Brex and then go to another set of services. 00:02:10.995 --> 00:02:14.725 So I think what I probably would have advised is that, hey, this 00:02:14.734 --> 00:02:16.315 is a great idea, execute it. 00:02:16.614 --> 00:02:21.775 Fully, but then begin to think about what the more upmarket or enterprise offerings 00:02:21.775 --> 00:02:23.954 would be as they graduate throughout this. 00:02:23.954 --> 00:02:28.414 Because if you can get an organization at a founder base, 00:02:28.465 --> 00:02:30.584 then you're part of that journey. 00:02:30.585 --> 00:02:33.054 And if you can be able to grow with them, I don't. 00:02:33.154 --> 00:02:36.244 I don't think that they fully realized how important or how impactful 00:02:36.255 --> 00:02:39.284 that would be if they, and when they started to move up market. 00:02:39.484 --> 00:02:43.864 Now we have more of a challenge of being able to create an understanding 00:02:43.864 --> 00:02:45.244 of what our brand is up market. 00:02:45.244 --> 00:02:49.124 Nobody knows who Brex is up market because even the companies that used 00:02:49.124 --> 00:02:50.994 to use us didn't use us anymore. 00:02:51.034 --> 00:02:53.184 So they've lost connectivity to us. 00:02:53.295 --> 00:02:56.725 So I think that if they had figured that out a little bit earlier, 00:02:56.725 --> 00:02:57.814 they would have been able to. 00:02:57.890 --> 00:03:01.630 Probably more naturally have graduated organizations along that 00:03:01.630 --> 00:03:03.350 path a little bit faster or better. 00:03:03.429 --> 00:03:07.199 I can't think of a unicorn that didn't have to go through what 00:03:07.209 --> 00:03:10.649 you all have been going through and that we, you brought in to do. 00:03:10.689 --> 00:03:14.159 So this is such an important playbook and there's so many aspects to the playbook. 00:03:14.339 --> 00:03:17.470 There's a product development cycle, there's rebranding. 00:03:17.499 --> 00:03:20.450 What we want to dive into today is you also have to. 00:03:20.954 --> 00:03:23.275 Pivot your sales team and their skills. 00:03:23.465 --> 00:03:24.405 Can you talk about that? 00:03:24.405 --> 00:03:27.625 Like where, where are they at in terms of like how they sold and 00:03:27.674 --> 00:03:28.825 wherever you had to take them? 00:03:28.835 --> 00:03:29.474 Yeah, sure. 00:03:29.775 --> 00:03:35.085 So the business that they were in before was what I characterize more 00:03:35.085 --> 00:03:37.805 as a transactional business where. 00:03:38.325 --> 00:03:42.305 An organization is informed or a group of people are informed or an 00:03:42.305 --> 00:03:47.845 individual is informed based on either the brand or an understanding from the 00:03:47.845 --> 00:03:51.215 marketplace and then a need is created. 00:03:51.234 --> 00:03:53.145 They're like, yeah, we do need a credit card. 00:03:53.475 --> 00:03:55.125 Then they figured it out. 00:03:55.184 --> 00:03:56.464 We email them. 00:03:56.555 --> 00:03:58.244 We would get responses back. 00:03:58.395 --> 00:04:01.255 We would jump on the phone with them and they'd be like, yeah, 00:04:01.295 --> 00:04:02.595 that sounds like a great idea. 00:04:02.665 --> 00:04:06.235 You hit hold, you put them into underwriting, they pass underwriting, 00:04:06.344 --> 00:04:09.095 they ship out a card, and then they start swiping the card. 00:04:09.475 --> 00:04:12.315 That process was a one week sale. 00:04:12.415 --> 00:04:14.244 It was a one call close. 00:04:14.405 --> 00:04:15.895 There was no contracts. 00:04:15.935 --> 00:04:17.235 There was no commitment. 00:04:17.415 --> 00:04:21.345 There was nothing involved with where we are today is. 00:04:21.605 --> 00:04:28.435 That we are now introducing a value proposition that is much more complex. 00:04:28.705 --> 00:04:34.964 It's a value proposition that contemplates different business processes that are 00:04:34.994 --> 00:04:37.315 either governed or run by different. 00:04:37.775 --> 00:04:41.375 Vendors different departments, and so therefore there needs to be a 00:04:41.375 --> 00:04:45.445 deeper explanation and discovery associated with what is happening 00:04:45.445 --> 00:04:49.984 within a company, the pain or the business challenge that they're facing. 00:04:50.244 --> 00:04:51.715 There needs to be a positioning. 00:04:51.725 --> 00:04:53.355 We're a multi product company. 00:04:53.355 --> 00:04:55.579 Now there needs to be a positioning of what. 00:04:56.320 --> 00:05:00.680 What combination of products is going to be best for that organization? 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:07.170 There's a contracting for it because now we have enterprise software, which comes 00:05:07.170 --> 00:05:13.609 with certain expectations and pricing and SLAs and, and requirements and. 00:05:14.159 --> 00:05:17.500 Technology and all of the things associated with that. 00:05:17.909 --> 00:05:21.010 Most organizations can't implement this on their own. 00:05:21.080 --> 00:05:24.980 So we've had to introduce the concept of an implementation department 00:05:25.340 --> 00:05:29.300 that goes ahead and gets them ready, configures the service, tests it and 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:31.200 gets it ready to be able to roll out. 00:05:31.549 --> 00:05:35.209 Um, and then once it's rolled out, there needs to be a customer success. 00:05:35.664 --> 00:05:39.905 Components that make sure that they're adopting, consuming and optimizing it 00:05:40.215 --> 00:05:44.075 because at the end of that journey, there needs to be a renewal and 00:05:44.075 --> 00:05:45.905 that's the difference in the business. 00:05:45.905 --> 00:05:50.554 It was a transactional business that didn't have any contractual obligation. 00:05:50.555 --> 00:05:54.885 There was no renewal process and they used it until they grew too big and then threw 00:05:54.885 --> 00:05:56.685 it away and then went to something else. 00:05:56.975 --> 00:05:57.875 We're now so. 00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:00.730 We're trying to figure out what their business challenge is. 00:06:00.780 --> 00:06:05.270 So it's a completely different business motion than it was before. 00:06:05.340 --> 00:06:08.299 You've painted that journey nicely for us. 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.480 It's, it's, uh, in terms of the different, different people that are involved. 00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:14.760 I want to focus in on the account executive piece. 00:06:15.205 --> 00:06:17.735 both in who they are and what they do. 00:06:17.775 --> 00:06:20.715 So first off, and this will be kind of like, what would you advise 00:06:20.725 --> 00:06:23.455 someone do going through this, but also like, what did you do at Brax? 00:06:23.555 --> 00:06:27.494 Do you go find new talent to run this at the account executive level, or do 00:06:27.494 --> 00:06:31.489 you primarily promote people on your team that you see have that talent? 00:06:31.820 --> 00:06:32.280 Ability. 00:06:32.690 --> 00:06:34.630 So it's a different skill set. 00:06:34.630 --> 00:06:39.370 So there are a ease out there that do value a more transactional based 00:06:39.520 --> 00:06:45.149 sale where they do like that fast paced, you know, multiple deals a 00:06:45.150 --> 00:06:47.390 week, a day, a month kind of thing. 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:49.790 And it's sort of just a little bit more repetition. 00:06:49.810 --> 00:06:50.150 So. 00:06:50.445 --> 00:06:54.255 There was a bunch of AEs and leaders within Brex that 00:06:54.255 --> 00:06:55.795 valued that kind of business. 00:06:55.815 --> 00:06:58.645 And what I'm introducing is an entirely new one. 00:06:58.645 --> 00:07:02.535 So some didn't want to take the journey just because it wasn't grooving for that. 00:07:03.015 --> 00:07:06.515 Those that did, it did take a little bit because selling a 00:07:06.515 --> 00:07:12.644 transaction based solution versus a more complex solution requires 00:07:12.734 --> 00:07:15.095 something that is critical, which is. 00:07:15.570 --> 00:07:22.160 Discovery, which means that you must have a level of business acumen to converse 00:07:22.190 --> 00:07:28.339 with the constituent at the company about the business they're in, the job 00:07:28.350 --> 00:07:35.050 they're performing in order for you to understand what the business problem is. 00:07:35.400 --> 00:07:40.030 And so doing a credit card transaction is a very different 00:07:40.030 --> 00:07:42.430 kind of skill set than getting into. 00:07:42.735 --> 00:07:46.855 How a business works and how you'd be able to solve that business problem. 00:07:47.435 --> 00:07:48.735 Hey folks, just Mark here. 00:07:48.885 --> 00:07:49.355 Wow. 00:07:49.355 --> 00:07:55.105 Is this consistent with what I see when I ask folks like Doug, who are experts 00:07:55.115 --> 00:07:59.244 at developing, picking, grooming, strategic account executives, account 00:07:59.245 --> 00:08:03.445 executives that can hit a million dollar plus quotas account executives that can. 00:08:03.775 --> 00:08:05.905 Close million dollar deals. 00:08:05.975 --> 00:08:09.385 Business acumen is usually one of the first things that is mentioned. 00:08:09.445 --> 00:08:12.395 And he's going to bring to life exactly what that means. 00:08:12.445 --> 00:08:16.865 I can tell you a way to think about it is being more outside in than inside out. 00:08:16.924 --> 00:08:19.384 We're like inside out is like, here's my product. 00:08:19.424 --> 00:08:20.484 Here's what it does. 00:08:20.635 --> 00:08:21.574 Does it work for you? 00:08:21.674 --> 00:08:27.005 Outside in is let me understand where you are in your role, your business. 00:08:27.025 --> 00:08:30.175 In fact, like even though I'm asking those questions as a seller, 00:08:30.235 --> 00:08:32.935 I totally understand what this compliance officer does all day. 00:08:33.530 --> 00:08:35.309 I totally understand what their problems are. 00:08:35.470 --> 00:08:38.640 I'm going to ask the questions to know how they're specifically thinking about it. 00:08:39.230 --> 00:08:40.910 But that is a huge difference. 00:08:41.429 --> 00:08:46.140 The other ones I often find is, The ability to develop a champion 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:51.060 and the final one is the ability to understand complex political 00:08:51.060 --> 00:08:52.799 dynamics within an organization. 00:08:52.880 --> 00:08:57.150 Those are three pretty common skills that you don't see super 00:08:57.150 --> 00:08:59.730 prevalent in the transactional seller that Doug's talking about. 00:09:00.010 --> 00:09:03.180 But you see as critical for this strategic seller that 00:09:03.190 --> 00:09:04.530 Doug is turning this team into. 00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:05.530 All right, let's get back to him. 00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:10.689 So yeah, there were a bunch of people that wanted to take that journey. 00:09:10.900 --> 00:09:15.370 And then yes, I've had to hire a bunch of people that already had that level of 00:09:15.370 --> 00:09:19.830 experience selling a SaaS based business solution to the office of the CFO. 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:23.590 Both of those combined have created a really, really cool culture 00:09:23.830 --> 00:09:25.350 to be able to accomplish that. 00:09:25.430 --> 00:09:29.010 Does their involvement in that buying journey change? 00:09:29.010 --> 00:09:31.510 It sounded like in the transaction of one, it was kind 00:09:31.510 --> 00:09:32.709 of like close them and move on. 00:09:33.050 --> 00:09:36.370 But does the salesperson stay involved after now for like 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:37.510 the renewal and the expansion? 00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:42.369 My suggestion would probably be that the individual that makes the 00:09:42.389 --> 00:09:47.819 initial sale also probably would be responsible for any additional 00:09:48.030 --> 00:09:50.680 expansion or cross sell and upsell. 00:09:50.969 --> 00:09:54.390 That was a little bit different at Brax because we have tens. 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:58.640 Of thousands of customers that use our service. 00:09:58.910 --> 00:10:04.619 So in our customer life cycle, we have net new business. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:09.919 Um, folks that acquire prospects into customers. 00:10:10.209 --> 00:10:12.590 And because we have multiple products. 00:10:13.064 --> 00:10:18.635 We also have a customer selling team that works in conjunction with customer success 00:10:19.055 --> 00:10:23.634 to ensure that we're either expanding that customer to different divisions or 00:10:23.635 --> 00:10:28.435 different countries around the world, or being able to find new business challenges 00:10:28.435 --> 00:10:30.575 where new sets of products could be sold. 00:10:30.695 --> 00:10:34.295 So the business challenge gets a prospect to be a customer. 00:10:34.775 --> 00:10:39.125 Maybe very, very finite once they're in the customer life cycle. 00:10:39.165 --> 00:10:42.115 Now they're exposed to the full value proposition. 00:10:42.125 --> 00:10:45.775 And we have, and try to earn the right to be able to solve other problems 00:10:45.775 --> 00:10:49.455 for them, which lead to other products that we have and be able to cross sell. 00:10:50.034 --> 00:10:54.944 Yeah, Doug's doing a nice job of like showing us at the people level and the 00:10:54.944 --> 00:11:00.824 roles, how this is altered as we move into this transition that he's taking Brex. 00:11:01.339 --> 00:11:03.719 And like, let's just talk about specialization in 00:11:03.719 --> 00:11:05.219 general while Doug is on it. 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:06.759 It's a complicated question. 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.579 People always ask, Hey, should I have an SDR cold call and an account 00:11:10.579 --> 00:11:15.249 executive sell and a customer success manager on board and renew? 00:11:15.319 --> 00:11:17.229 Or should I have one person do everything? 00:11:17.380 --> 00:11:22.270 It is very in vogue today to specialize, but it's not always optimal. 00:11:22.329 --> 00:11:25.839 If you think about like, um, McKinsey and BCG, like big consulting 00:11:25.899 --> 00:11:28.760 companies, they, their partners are actually kind of salespeople and 00:11:28.760 --> 00:11:29.839 they sort of do the whole thing. 00:11:29.910 --> 00:11:33.929 The specialization is great because you can choose the perfect 00:11:33.929 --> 00:11:36.290 person and skill for the stage. 00:11:36.349 --> 00:11:39.520 Like usually the hardest part in that whole thing is the thing that Doug's 00:11:39.520 --> 00:11:43.219 about to get into, which is this discovery and this tailoring of the pitch. 00:11:43.439 --> 00:11:47.959 And we wouldn't want to almost like waste that person on cold calling or 00:11:47.959 --> 00:11:52.569 like apply that person on onboarding where we could find a different person. 00:11:52.569 --> 00:11:53.569 So that's the advantage. 00:11:53.770 --> 00:11:57.390 The disadvantage is You have to create this really complicated 00:11:57.390 --> 00:11:59.050 to align those organizations. 00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:02.200 Like no one's going to set up a bad appointment if they're the one that 00:12:02.210 --> 00:12:05.450 has to sell it and no one's going to sell a bad customer if they're 00:12:05.450 --> 00:12:06.859 the ones that has to onboard it. 00:12:07.030 --> 00:12:11.260 But once you specialize that happens and there's a lot of complicated 00:12:11.260 --> 00:12:12.779 alignment that you have to fit in. 00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:16.350 I know in this case I often see as we're moving upstream like Brex is 00:12:16.350 --> 00:12:21.520 doing, we usually have the salesperson involved in the post sale, involved 00:12:21.560 --> 00:12:24.680 in the renewal, involved in the expansion because there's a lot more. 00:12:24.955 --> 00:12:27.295 Quote unquote meat on the bone in terms of the count. 00:12:27.365 --> 00:12:29.815 We can turn a 100, 000 account into a 5, 000, 000 account. 00:12:30.035 --> 00:12:34.474 But doing that requires that deep skill set that only that 00:12:34.474 --> 00:12:36.224 strategic account executive has. 00:12:36.295 --> 00:12:37.175 All right, let's get back to Doug. 00:12:38.375 --> 00:12:44.375 So the expectation is the long term value of a customer will be three, 00:12:44.434 --> 00:12:48.125 five times what their initial value is. 00:12:48.370 --> 00:12:50.400 going from a prospect to a customer. 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:54.270 If I'm starting out, I'm thinking that that's going to be a singular person. 00:12:54.560 --> 00:12:58.880 If I have hundreds or thousands of customers, you may want to break 00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:02.829 that out because those are two very different kinds of selling sort of 00:13:02.939 --> 00:13:05.459 patterns and businesses and motions. 00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:06.059 Okay. 00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:08.480 Let's dive into that skill set then. 00:13:08.579 --> 00:13:12.550 So now I've got this, you know, 28 year old account executive who's 00:13:12.550 --> 00:13:14.290 been doing a transactional process. 00:13:14.290 --> 00:13:17.150 And what you're talking about is a much higher level of selling. 00:13:17.150 --> 00:13:17.330 Yep. 00:13:17.945 --> 00:13:19.845 I, I love this level of selling. 00:13:19.885 --> 00:13:21.485 It's talking to much more. 00:13:21.854 --> 00:13:26.555 Sophisticated executives, arguably, and walking them through a much 00:13:26.594 --> 00:13:28.144 bigger, more complex purchase. 00:13:28.234 --> 00:13:31.665 Where do you even start to teach that 27 year old to develop 00:13:31.665 --> 00:13:32.864 that skill and how to do that? 00:13:32.994 --> 00:13:38.295 First of all, the organization has to have a fairly clear understanding of what 00:13:38.304 --> 00:13:44.674 their value proposition or positioning is in the market in order for that AE to 00:13:44.674 --> 00:13:49.685 be able to To be successful, they have to know what the purpose of the organization 00:13:49.685 --> 00:13:55.314 is and what the positioning of the solution or the offering is going to be. 00:13:55.625 --> 00:13:59.645 And then work in conjunction with marketing to understand how leads 00:13:59.645 --> 00:14:03.655 are being able to be developed and curated and how they come in. 00:14:05.339 --> 00:14:09.020 AE in that particular position can't rely exclusively on 00:14:09.130 --> 00:14:10.610 marketing to be able to do this. 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.770 They're going to have to pick up the phone and pound the phone to drive 00:14:13.770 --> 00:14:17.189 their own pipeline, especially if you're in a new organization where 00:14:17.189 --> 00:14:20.560 there is no brand recognition or brand awareness that's, that's out there. 00:14:20.629 --> 00:14:23.969 So the very, very first thing to understand is what is 00:14:23.969 --> 00:14:25.920 the product designed to do? 00:14:26.260 --> 00:14:29.939 If it's consumed correctly, what is the impact it's supposed 00:14:29.939 --> 00:14:31.540 to have on an organization? 00:14:31.900 --> 00:14:37.535 Who are the constituents or the, Jobs or the individuals in the organization 00:14:37.535 --> 00:14:43.194 that have a high probability of of either owning all or a portion of the 00:14:43.194 --> 00:14:45.245 business challenge that you're solving. 00:14:45.704 --> 00:14:50.895 Make sure that you have an understanding of the impact of the solution 00:14:50.974 --> 00:14:52.829 that you have, whether that's. 00:14:53.130 --> 00:14:58.460 Savings or speed or insight or whatever it is. 00:14:58.470 --> 00:15:02.520 That's going to be able to do that and make sure you understand how that's 00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:06.860 going to impact the individual, the individual's role, their department, 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:11.140 and then the overall value of what that's bringing to the organization. 00:15:11.549 --> 00:15:16.659 What you need to be able to do is literally build out a script that walks 00:15:16.709 --> 00:15:22.359 you through step by step and asking questions and engaging that constituent. 00:15:22.770 --> 00:15:28.150 In a conversation that helps them understand what you do, 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:32.300 what value you could bring the introduction of a business problem. 00:15:32.300 --> 00:15:37.360 They may or should have and then be able to articulate a little bit about 00:15:37.370 --> 00:15:42.720 how you'd be able to solve it with the sole goal of that initial conversation. 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:49.660 To get more time with them, to do a deeper discovery of how and what they're 00:15:49.660 --> 00:15:51.760 dealing with at that period of time. 00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:54.650 This is the second step. 00:15:54.780 --> 00:15:57.610 The next thing we need to do is give them a guide. 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:01.020 I call it a discovery call guide that Doug is talking us 00:16:01.020 --> 00:16:03.780 through on like how to navigate. 00:16:04.095 --> 00:16:07.755 The discovery and the qualification of this particular account. 00:16:07.885 --> 00:16:11.465 This is not really, he's saying script, but it's not, don't confuse 00:16:11.465 --> 00:16:12.654 this with like, ask this question. 00:16:12.654 --> 00:16:13.465 Then ask this question. 00:16:13.735 --> 00:16:14.035 There's a solution. 00:16:14.225 --> 00:16:19.235 It's really a collection of questions that they might ask depend on a context. 00:16:19.785 --> 00:16:22.305 And that context could be what they're currently using. 00:16:22.895 --> 00:16:24.809 It could be what their specific role is. 00:16:25.330 --> 00:16:29.730 And we want to have like a one pager in front of the seller as a little bit of a 00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:34.790 cheat sheet because this is a very intense moment to have options of questions to 00:16:34.790 --> 00:16:36.220 go to that are high value questions. 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:37.500 All right, let's get back to Dub. 00:16:40.675 --> 00:16:41.545 Be prepared. 00:16:41.665 --> 00:16:44.694 You have to make sure you have, you know, your notes and your 00:16:44.694 --> 00:16:46.185 scripting in front of you. 00:16:46.375 --> 00:16:51.324 You have to make sure that you have your ability to be able to overcome objections. 00:16:51.664 --> 00:16:56.344 You have to be okay pounding your head against the wall a few times to be 00:16:56.345 --> 00:16:58.255 able to understand what's going on. 00:16:58.534 --> 00:17:03.755 And then, Once you get through that, you get to the second call, and the second 00:17:03.785 --> 00:17:09.675 call is where you're going to be able to ask a ton of questions to get discovery, 00:17:09.995 --> 00:17:15.505 to understand how they view this business problem, and if it was solved. 00:17:15.825 --> 00:17:21.745 Then how would that individual view the benefit being, and if you can do that in 00:17:21.745 --> 00:17:27.005 the first couple of calls, then that's how you build sustainable pipeline. 00:17:27.015 --> 00:17:28.645 Not everybody's going to want the product. 00:17:28.645 --> 00:17:33.924 Okay, so this is a numbers game, so let's not ever forget that if you're. 00:17:34.264 --> 00:17:38.475 Devoting your life to being an AE, you're in the numbers game, but if you keep 00:17:38.495 --> 00:17:43.435 your Rolodex, if you keep your notes, if you have some kind of CRM system, 00:17:43.465 --> 00:17:47.884 if you're capturing this, if you follow up, when you follow up, if you make sure 00:17:47.885 --> 00:17:52.465 that you're building that pipeline up, then what will happen is you'll always 00:17:52.474 --> 00:17:54.694 be in some interesting discussions. 00:17:54.824 --> 00:17:58.264 Um, with different constituents in an organization about business 00:17:58.264 --> 00:18:02.304 challenges they have around the value proposition and the positioning 00:18:02.304 --> 00:18:03.624 of the company that you're in. 00:18:04.084 --> 00:18:09.274 That is where you as an AE should spend a majority of your time preparing and 00:18:09.274 --> 00:18:13.735 making sure that you're getting training because that's where the money is found. 00:18:13.844 --> 00:18:18.565 If you're capable of being able to uncover business opportunities 00:18:18.585 --> 00:18:19.649 to improve your business. 00:18:19.719 --> 00:18:23.949 Another company's business by being able to introduce something that's going 00:18:23.949 --> 00:18:27.379 to drive an outcome that's meaningful to the person you're talking to. 00:18:27.639 --> 00:18:29.049 That's really tough to do. 00:18:29.219 --> 00:18:32.739 I'm not, you know, Mark, this is like one of the most difficult things that 00:18:32.739 --> 00:18:37.330 I've done and had to be challenged with that Brex because it's easy 00:18:37.439 --> 00:18:40.019 to say, Hey, I'm going to give you 2 percent cash back on a card that 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.399 doesn't require personal guarantee. 00:18:42.595 --> 00:18:44.514 That's very easy to understand. 00:18:44.995 --> 00:18:50.795 Now we're trying to change the way in which organizations view a traditional 00:18:50.795 --> 00:18:56.135 business process or multiple business processes in a entirely different 00:18:56.145 --> 00:19:00.985 paradigm that requires control patients. 00:19:01.610 --> 00:19:07.610 Perseverance, being okay with constructive tension, challenging the 00:19:07.610 --> 00:19:11.750 norm, being studied up, being prepared. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.349 I wholeheartedly agree. 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.740 Like, the people don't know this is what sales is. 00:19:18.890 --> 00:19:22.129 Like, I, I, my students at Harvard, when they're like, Hey, what is sales? 00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:24.575 And I tell them, This story. 00:19:24.625 --> 00:19:29.735 I'm like, Hey, listen, you want to practice like the true difficult 00:19:30.225 --> 00:19:33.175 skill of sales that differentiates the good ones from the best. 00:19:33.325 --> 00:19:35.855 Go to a networking event this weekend. 00:19:36.045 --> 00:19:37.715 Maybe you or maybe you have a wedding. 00:19:37.715 --> 00:19:39.005 Maybe you have like a party. 00:19:39.005 --> 00:19:42.505 Maybe you have a family gathering where someplace where there's a bunch 00:19:42.505 --> 00:19:43.925 of people that don't know each other. 00:19:44.205 --> 00:19:48.745 Walk up to a stranger and start asking them questions and see how long you can 00:19:48.765 --> 00:19:50.795 ask them questions before they're annoyed. 00:19:52.510 --> 00:19:55.200 One of the most important skills of sales, believe it or not. 00:19:55.310 --> 00:19:58.880 And if you're good at it, you can last for like 20, 30 minutes. 00:19:59.110 --> 00:20:01.830 And during that process, people might say, you know what? 00:20:01.860 --> 00:20:04.120 No one's ever asked me that question before. 00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:05.639 And that is a beautiful moment. 00:20:05.770 --> 00:20:09.350 You have just reframed and rewired their perspective on the world. 00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:12.040 That is a, a critical skill for sales. 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:12.760 And that's what you're doing. 00:20:12.980 --> 00:20:15.780 People will literally walk away and like, I would have talked to someone 00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:20.490 for like 30 minutes, said nothing about myself, except for my name, asked him 00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:22.700 20 questions, and they'll go back to their spouse and be like, you know 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:24.389 that guy, Mark, he's an amazing guy. 00:20:24.460 --> 00:20:27.330 So just, if you really want to know one of the secret sauce of 00:20:27.330 --> 00:20:30.629 sales, that's the skill right there that Doug is outlining for us. 00:20:30.749 --> 00:20:31.589 All right, let's get back to him. 00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:34.439 You have to invest in your profession if you're going to 00:20:34.439 --> 00:20:39.029 sell something more complex rather than a much more of a transaction. 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.090 I think most people getting into sales don't even know. 00:20:42.405 --> 00:20:43.715 But this is where they have to go. 00:20:43.995 --> 00:20:45.335 And at some point they see. 00:20:45.689 --> 00:20:46.790 Like the million dollar reps. 00:20:46.790 --> 00:20:47.510 I'm like that. 00:20:47.719 --> 00:20:48.280 That's it. 00:20:48.409 --> 00:20:49.300 That's it right there. 00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:56.810 Talking Too Loud, hosted by Chris Savage, is brought to you 00:20:56.810 --> 00:20:58.410 by the HubSpot Podcast Network. 00:20:58.929 --> 00:21:01.720 The audio destination for business professionals. 00:21:02.629 --> 00:21:07.749 On this podcast, Chris Savage, Wistia CEO and loudest talker, takes you 00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:11.730 inside the minds of entrepreneurs as they share the hilarious, 00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:16.429 informative, and most challenging aspects of building more human brands. 00:21:17.235 --> 00:21:20.745 You can hear episodes like building a reusable notebook empire with 00:21:20.745 --> 00:21:25.975 entrepreneur Joe LeMay, or the AI video revolution with Wistia's own 00:21:25.984 --> 00:21:27.784 head of production, Chris Levine. 00:21:28.375 --> 00:21:31.504 Listen to talking too loud, wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:35.824 --> 00:21:40.665 I always get the question of like, how do I not have the buyer 00:21:40.665 --> 00:21:42.524 feel like I'm interrogating them? 00:21:43.155 --> 00:21:43.615 You know what I mean? 00:21:43.615 --> 00:21:47.295 Like, how do you set this situation up where it's like, you can't just like grab 00:21:47.295 --> 00:21:50.285 someone on the street and be like, Hey, by the way, I'm What are your problems? 00:21:50.285 --> 00:21:51.855 And like, how is finance working? 00:21:51.855 --> 00:21:52.065 And like. 00:21:52.530 --> 00:21:55.470 So how do you get them to a point where they're open to this 00:21:55.470 --> 00:21:56.610 and not being like buzz off? 00:21:56.700 --> 00:22:00.860 So first of all, I think that there needs to be an understanding that 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:07.779 if you're an AE at an organization where you're introducing a new way 00:22:07.820 --> 00:22:11.750 of being able to view an existing business problem or you're introducing 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:16.375 something new, then you have to be okay with the concept of Constructive 00:22:16.375 --> 00:22:21.465 tension, the best AEs that I've worked for and that have worked for me. 00:22:21.815 --> 00:22:25.974 So when you're going into these conversations, yeah, I know it seems 00:22:25.974 --> 00:22:29.005 weird, but maybe in the street, it's a little bit different than 00:22:29.304 --> 00:22:31.025 when you're cold calling somebody. 00:22:31.215 --> 00:22:34.505 You want to get directly to the point and be okay. 00:22:34.525 --> 00:22:39.055 Be professionally okay with being very direct, with being able to 00:22:39.055 --> 00:22:42.715 challenge the norm, being okay with constructive tension, being okay 00:22:42.715 --> 00:22:43.945 with someone disagreeing with you. 00:22:43.945 --> 00:22:44.375 Because. 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:48.990 The percentage chance that they see the business problem like you is zero. 00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:52.880 So you do need to develop some ability to have rapport. 00:22:53.060 --> 00:22:56.299 Sometimes humor can work out sometimes making sure that you're studied 00:22:56.300 --> 00:22:58.339 on the individual's profession. 00:22:58.690 --> 00:23:00.789 Maybe you even know something about the individual cause you've 00:23:00.789 --> 00:23:03.900 studied them on LinkedIn or you've done some research beforehand. 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.119 So there isn't like an ice breaking moment, but do not feel bad. 00:23:08.340 --> 00:23:12.670 About going directly into, you know, the ability to be able to challenge 00:23:12.670 --> 00:23:14.330 them to think a little bit differently. 00:23:14.379 --> 00:23:15.830 People respect that. 00:23:16.010 --> 00:23:18.960 They really do respect that, especially in this day and age. 00:23:19.020 --> 00:23:22.479 And that was kind of like a related question I had is like, okay, 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.999 it probably continuation of the challenging, because sometimes even 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.780 if you execute this, like consultative discovery oriented sales process 00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:32.260 that you're all lying for us, Doug. 00:23:32.530 --> 00:23:36.800 The buyer's perspective is not in line with what your value prop is. 00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:39.910 They might kind of just be like, yeah, MX is good enough. 00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:44.139 And at that point, like that differentiates good salespeople 00:23:44.149 --> 00:23:45.649 from the cream of the crop. 00:23:45.749 --> 00:23:47.059 And that is their ability. 00:23:47.270 --> 00:23:53.810 I call it like reframe the buyer's perception of their opportunity, of 00:23:53.810 --> 00:23:55.560 their challenge, of their priorities. 00:23:55.949 --> 00:24:00.049 I've always struggled to create a framework around reframing. 00:24:00.459 --> 00:24:01.620 I have examples. 00:24:02.110 --> 00:24:04.200 Of where I've seen individual companies do it. 00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:07.210 Could you tell us how you do that? 00:24:07.210 --> 00:24:09.960 Cause it seems like it's, that's a pretty important part of your method. 00:24:10.070 --> 00:24:10.440 Yeah. 00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:11.770 So you're right. 00:24:11.780 --> 00:24:15.859 This is an easy mark and your perspective of it is spot on. 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:22.070 What I said earlier is the fact that you need to understand what business challenge 00:24:22.070 --> 00:24:27.250 your company uniquely solves, and you need to make sure that you understand 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:33.100 how to be able to position that and, and what it is, but most of the time. 00:24:34.145 --> 00:24:40.035 Organizations are introducing a new way of being able to look at a 00:24:40.035 --> 00:24:47.275 business problem and very rarely will the person or group of people you're 00:24:47.285 --> 00:24:50.465 talking to view the problem like you. 00:24:51.055 --> 00:24:56.855 So, What needs to happen in that reframing is that you have to show control and 00:24:56.855 --> 00:25:02.965 restraint not to talk about yourself or your company or your product. 00:25:03.374 --> 00:25:04.524 They don't care. 00:25:05.304 --> 00:25:06.454 They don't care about you. 00:25:06.454 --> 00:25:09.604 They don't care about your company, and they don't care about your product. 00:25:10.004 --> 00:25:14.084 The way in which you have to approach a reframing is about them, 00:25:14.754 --> 00:25:17.384 their business, their department. 00:25:17.544 --> 00:25:23.435 Their company, how can you improve their business by driving an outcome 00:25:23.805 --> 00:25:29.004 because of the way in which you're uniquely introducing insights that 00:25:29.014 --> 00:25:33.754 are going to affect their business or their individual and going from there? 00:25:33.764 --> 00:25:38.710 So, There are three different reasons why people buy one. 00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:40.350 They're already in trouble. 00:25:41.050 --> 00:25:42.360 They already have a problem. 00:25:42.390 --> 00:25:44.949 And those are the best cold calls to be able to have you like, Oh my 00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:47.739 gosh, thank goodness Doug called because I was wondering what I 00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:48.839 was going to do with this problem. 00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:49.559 Very rare. 00:25:50.129 --> 00:25:53.829 Two, they see trouble coming, which means that, you know what? 00:25:54.549 --> 00:25:55.609 I'm on to something. 00:25:55.689 --> 00:25:57.329 I know what you're talking about. 00:25:57.399 --> 00:25:58.549 I'm interested. 00:25:58.609 --> 00:26:01.179 I'm not really feeling it right now, but I could see this around 00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:03.579 the horizon or three, maybe. 00:26:04.070 --> 00:26:05.209 They want to be a hero. 00:26:05.590 --> 00:26:10.580 They're looking for new ways to introduce either business processes or solutions 00:26:10.580 --> 00:26:14.959 into their organizations in order for them and their department to be 00:26:14.959 --> 00:26:16.889 more additive to their organization. 00:26:16.889 --> 00:26:18.309 So you're either in trouble. 00:26:18.509 --> 00:26:20.969 You see trouble coming or you want to be a hero. 00:26:21.260 --> 00:26:22.670 So reframing. 00:26:23.215 --> 00:26:27.415 A business challenge requires you to understand the persona you're talking 00:26:27.415 --> 00:26:32.535 to, to have command over what your position and value proposition is, the 00:26:32.565 --> 00:26:39.244 external insights that are impacting that organization that inevitably are going 00:26:39.244 --> 00:26:45.095 to create some kind of issue that they're going to have to deal with, and that 00:26:45.105 --> 00:26:51.180 you're going to be the person To be able to offer a unique solution to help them 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:56.829 either overcome this, take advantage of it, or, or capitalize on it in some way. 00:26:57.790 --> 00:27:02.789 Yeah, this reframing thing, I just hope I get it at some point on how 00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:04.449 to teach everyone how to do it. 00:27:05.170 --> 00:27:07.959 I just can't come up with the consistent one. 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:11.300 And I like that Doug has given us a good example. 00:27:11.300 --> 00:27:12.950 I'll give you the HubSpot example. 00:27:13.470 --> 00:27:14.730 First year of HubSpot. 00:27:15.020 --> 00:27:17.510 The hardest objection we got was like, I love all this stuff. 00:27:17.510 --> 00:27:18.600 I want to implement this thing. 00:27:18.600 --> 00:27:19.440 I want to start a blog. 00:27:19.450 --> 00:27:21.840 I want to start a social media presence, but we're rebuilding 00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:23.000 our website right now. 00:27:23.210 --> 00:27:24.280 It's going to take about two months. 00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:25.150 Can you call me then? 00:27:25.270 --> 00:27:25.900 It killed us. 00:27:26.990 --> 00:27:28.710 Like we'd call them in two months and they forgot our name. 00:27:28.870 --> 00:27:30.320 Like it just, it would kill us. 00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:36.100 And I remember, I think it was Catherine Durham actually in the year one or two. 00:27:36.790 --> 00:27:39.080 Came up with it or someone else came up with it and told her, 00:27:39.590 --> 00:27:42.320 and it was a key question, which was like, Oh, okay, no problem. 00:27:42.320 --> 00:27:43.100 You're building a website. 00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:44.470 What is the goal of your website? 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:44.970 Redesign. 00:27:45.399 --> 00:27:48.270 And they would say, Oh, you know, just like we needed to make it 00:27:48.270 --> 00:27:51.219 look better and update the images and the copies a little off. 00:27:51.219 --> 00:27:55.199 And, you know, and then she would say, Oh, okay. 00:27:55.199 --> 00:27:55.779 I see. 00:27:56.069 --> 00:27:58.360 I actually don't think you're a good fit for HubSpot. 00:27:59.385 --> 00:28:01.045 And they would say, well, what are you talking about? 00:28:01.045 --> 00:28:04.625 I was like, no, you're just talking a lot about like your website and it's 00:28:04.625 --> 00:28:07.565 like kind of like an online brochure for you and you want it to make it look 00:28:07.575 --> 00:28:11.535 good and the message is right and what we are for is for people who want their 00:28:11.535 --> 00:28:13.004 website to generate leads for them. 00:28:13.115 --> 00:28:14.295 And then, bam, game over. 00:28:14.355 --> 00:28:15.535 They were like, oh, I actually want that. 00:28:15.555 --> 00:28:18.815 And now it got into the whole fact of like why they need to implement HubSpot 00:28:18.965 --> 00:28:21.615 before the website redesign or instead of. 00:28:22.215 --> 00:28:25.534 And it was just like, when we found website redesigns at that point, 00:28:25.564 --> 00:28:28.625 they were like our hottest leads because of that reframing technique. 00:28:28.635 --> 00:28:31.044 So again, I don't know how to like generalize this. 00:28:31.095 --> 00:28:33.754 I know it's like, you don't tell the prospect they're wrong. 00:28:34.494 --> 00:28:37.575 I know it's usually a provocative question like Catherine showed us there. 00:28:38.165 --> 00:28:42.524 Uh, but I also know it separates the good from the very best when it comes to sales. 00:28:43.060 --> 00:28:43.990 All right, let's get back to Deb. 00:28:45.250 --> 00:28:50.690 So reframing has to do with having control and restraint, not to talk about your 00:28:50.690 --> 00:28:55.490 company or your product, to talk about that individual, their persona, their 00:28:55.500 --> 00:29:00.850 department, their role, their company, to be able to talk about how we can improve 00:29:00.850 --> 00:29:06.040 it by being able to drive outcomes Notes That will be measurable because there 00:29:06.040 --> 00:29:10.169 are inevitabilities that are going to happen that you will need to account 00:29:10.179 --> 00:29:12.530 for how are you going to account for it? 00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:13.890 What are you prepared for? 00:29:14.230 --> 00:29:17.060 I have some suggestions and ideas that I'd like to share with you. 00:29:17.090 --> 00:29:19.750 And that normally is a way in which people can start to think 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.030 about the product differently. 00:29:21.335 --> 00:29:26.475 Or the problem differently and invite you in to be able to get more information from 00:29:26.475 --> 00:29:31.135 other groups of people in order to frame the size or the capacity or the type of 00:29:31.135 --> 00:29:32.945 problem that they think that they have. 00:29:33.285 --> 00:29:37.925 So I'm going back to like the 27 year old who used to be the 00:29:37.925 --> 00:29:42.475 transactional rep and now wants to do this and they're like, Oh, I get it. 00:29:42.515 --> 00:29:46.345 And then I'm like starting to get anxious cause I'm like, I'm picturing 00:29:46.345 --> 00:29:49.565 talking to this like compliance officer who's been in a compliance office for 00:29:49.565 --> 00:29:51.715 20 years and they're like, who are you? 00:29:51.785 --> 00:29:54.885 Like, like you, you mentioned confidence that you are the 00:29:54.885 --> 00:29:56.525 person to fix the problem. 00:29:56.685 --> 00:30:00.915 How does a 27 year old who's been at this for six months build confidence 00:30:00.915 --> 00:30:04.284 with a 20 year veteran in compliance that they're the person to fix this? 00:30:04.585 --> 00:30:10.395 If the company that we're talking about truly is a complex, more upmarket 00:30:10.575 --> 00:30:16.795 enterprise software organization, then they're going to have a team of people. 00:30:16.795 --> 00:30:22.665 So an AE who is selling a high ticket item upmarket in a solution based 00:30:22.705 --> 00:30:27.525 complex sale isn't going to be able to play all the roles themselves. 00:30:27.545 --> 00:30:31.385 They're going to need to rely on some other folks to be able to help them out. 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:36.610 Early on, that may be the chief product officer could be the founders. 00:30:36.610 --> 00:30:37.970 It could be engineering. 00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:40.300 It could be other folks to be able to help them out. 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:44.710 As you get more mature, you'll have a pre sales department, solution consultants, 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.050 and technical consultants that accompany you to be able to help do that. 00:30:49.080 --> 00:30:51.870 So you'll surround yourself with expertise. 00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:58.450 Understand that an AE's role is only to be able to build demand to get to 00:30:58.450 --> 00:31:03.770 the point where we can get discovery to figure out whether we can reframe the 00:31:03.770 --> 00:31:07.040 problem and then lead to our product. 00:31:07.770 --> 00:31:08.300 Boom. 00:31:08.600 --> 00:31:09.910 Couldn't have said it more beautifully. 00:31:10.040 --> 00:31:14.040 Don't lead with the product, lead the buyer to the product. 00:31:14.090 --> 00:31:15.794 What a great summary. 00:31:16.395 --> 00:31:21.135 of the difference between an okay salesperson and world class. 00:31:21.255 --> 00:31:25.695 And Doug has done such a nice job of showing how to teach your salespeople, 00:31:25.695 --> 00:31:27.075 your sales team, to do that. 00:31:27.795 --> 00:31:28.805 Let's finish it up with him. 00:31:30.125 --> 00:31:34.035 We don't lead with our product to see whether they have a problem. 00:31:34.255 --> 00:31:38.615 We're always leading to our product by doing discovery and making 00:31:38.615 --> 00:31:41.465 sure that we understand what they view their problem being. 00:31:41.575 --> 00:31:41.985 Love it. 00:31:42.215 --> 00:31:44.195 Well, thank you so much, Doug. 00:31:44.345 --> 00:31:50.455 You've been such an innovator Nowadays in the fintech arena, you know, I think 00:31:50.525 --> 00:31:55.505 what our conversation is showing us that like, yes, we need great product 00:31:55.895 --> 00:32:00.975 and we need great messaging, but it falls flat if we don't work on it. 00:32:01.345 --> 00:32:03.245 The execution on that front line. 00:32:03.345 --> 00:32:05.995 And it's very easy to think that's trivial. 00:32:06.145 --> 00:32:09.745 And I think what Doug has done such a nice job today is to help us 00:32:09.775 --> 00:32:14.385 understand all the nuances, all the complexities of that, and then bring 00:32:14.385 --> 00:32:18.505 it back to a simpler methodology that we can implement and scale. 00:32:19.075 --> 00:32:20.305 Thank you so much for being here. 00:32:20.305 --> 00:32:20.555 Thanks 00:32:20.565 --> 00:32:21.205 so much, Mark. 00:32:21.205 --> 00:32:22.075 I really appreciate it. 00:32:22.165 --> 00:32:22.585 Awesome. 00:32:32.405 --> 00:32:35.275 Today's episode is written and produced by Matthew Brown. 00:32:35.645 --> 00:32:36.959 Our show is edited by Peter. 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.080 Big thanks to HubSpot for Startups and to the HubSpot Podcast 00:32:42.130 --> 00:32:43.820 Network for keeping the audio on. 00:32:44.050 --> 00:32:47.900 Hey, also, we're a new show, so if you like what you hear, or if you hate what 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:51.560 you hear, leave us a rating and review over on your favorite podcast player. 00:32:51.570 --> 00:32:52.490 I love the feedback. 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.510 Also, check out Stage 2 Capital. 00:32:54.710 --> 00:33:00.480 We're the first VC firm running back by over CCOs. 00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:04.230 So if you're an entrepreneur looking to scale your business, check out Stage2. 00:33:04.260 --> 00:33:04.640 Capital. 00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:06.300 Alright, that's it for today. 00:33:06.510 --> 00:33:07.290 I'm Mark Roberge. 00:33:07.300 --> 00:33:07.910 See you next week.