WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.580 --> 00:00:07.199 Hey folks, welcome to the Science to Scaling podcast. 00:00:07.270 --> 00:00:08.750 I'm your host, Mark Roberge. 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.559 Today we talk with Stevie Case, the CRO of Vanta. 00:00:12.709 --> 00:00:16.710 Stevie had a great career running mid market sales at Twilio. 00:00:16.779 --> 00:00:21.380 And about a year ago, came out of this great company called Vanta. 00:00:22.034 --> 00:00:23.825 To help them drive in the next phase of growth. 00:00:24.044 --> 00:00:27.435 The thing we're going to dive in today is something called ankle biters. 00:00:27.854 --> 00:00:30.674 If you are an entrepreneur that experiences ankle biters, 00:00:30.715 --> 00:00:35.195 congratulations, you have graduated into the next phase of compliments. 00:00:35.474 --> 00:00:37.055 You have created a company. 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:39.790 And a category that is successful. 00:00:39.910 --> 00:00:43.760 So successful that the competition comes in, that they get funding, 00:00:43.870 --> 00:00:46.950 that they copy your product, that they sell it for half the price. 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:48.609 Some of you might be shaking your head. 00:00:48.620 --> 00:00:48.990 Yes. 00:00:49.110 --> 00:00:51.209 And it's a pain, but it's a compliment. 00:00:51.419 --> 00:00:54.279 That's definitely happened for Vanta and for Stevie. 00:00:54.499 --> 00:00:58.260 And she's got one of the best stories I've heard on how to offset and 00:00:58.260 --> 00:01:00.230 mitigate against those ankle biters. 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.260 We got some great stuff to talk about with Vanta and like. 00:01:07.625 --> 00:01:11.285 Before you go there, though, like, did it take you 23 years to graduate college? 00:01:11.585 --> 00:01:11.945 Yes, 00:01:12.445 --> 00:01:12.724 it did. 00:01:12.724 --> 00:01:13.795 Did I read your LinkedIn ride? 00:01:13.795 --> 00:01:14.625 Is that a typo? 00:01:14.695 --> 00:01:14.885 It 00:01:14.885 --> 00:01:18.575 may be more like 25, but yes, that is a true story. 00:01:18.845 --> 00:01:24.375 I finished my degree that started in 1994 during the pandemic. 00:01:24.544 --> 00:01:25.565 So what were you doing? 00:01:26.155 --> 00:01:28.295 Like, why'd you, why'd you stop college and then? 00:01:28.695 --> 00:01:30.175 25 years later, I go back. 00:01:30.395 --> 00:01:32.544 I did a couple of things in there. 00:01:32.604 --> 00:01:38.315 And, uh, the very short version of the story is that back in the late 90s, I went 00:01:38.315 --> 00:01:43.844 off to the University of Kansas with grand dreams of becoming a lawyer and going 00:01:43.844 --> 00:01:46.234 into politics and constitutional law. 00:01:46.834 --> 00:01:52.335 And a couple of years into that, I was hanging out in the honors dorm at the 00:01:52.335 --> 00:01:56.935 University of Kansas, and I started playing video games with some friends. 00:01:57.365 --> 00:02:01.714 And my life took this very unexpected detour that led me to drop out 00:02:01.714 --> 00:02:06.094 of college and become the world's first professional female gamer 00:02:06.334 --> 00:02:08.195 playing Quake back in the day. 00:02:08.845 --> 00:02:09.874 That is sick. 00:02:10.004 --> 00:02:10.644 That is sick. 00:02:10.645 --> 00:02:12.145 Like I, What was Quake? 00:02:12.755 --> 00:02:16.454 It was a first person shooter and it was a PC game. 00:02:16.484 --> 00:02:19.234 So I was very much a PC gamer, not console. 00:02:19.605 --> 00:02:24.075 And you know, this is classic, like mouse and keyboard, WASD, 00:02:25.045 --> 00:02:26.904 like navigating through a 3d space. 00:02:27.234 --> 00:02:31.155 It was one of the very first games that you could play multiplayer. 00:02:31.515 --> 00:02:33.825 So these are early days of the internet. 00:02:33.845 --> 00:02:36.525 Imagine going into the console of a game. 00:02:36.920 --> 00:02:41.070 Uh, sort of looked like a terminal and typing the IP address of servers to 00:02:41.070 --> 00:02:42.470 connect and play with other people. 00:02:42.470 --> 00:02:44.050 That's how long ago we're talking. 00:02:44.190 --> 00:02:45.230 That is crazy. 00:02:45.670 --> 00:02:50.329 Did the experience of being a professional gamer, do you draw on 00:02:50.389 --> 00:02:52.590 anything you learned there as a CRO? 00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:54.160 Absolutely. 00:02:54.170 --> 00:02:54.560 Yes. 00:02:54.750 --> 00:02:55.230 Really? 00:02:55.250 --> 00:02:55.360 Yeah. 00:02:55.820 --> 00:03:00.500 I mean, being a CRO is, is a version of the same game. 00:03:00.790 --> 00:03:02.789 It's resource allocation. 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:04.000 It's strategy. 00:03:04.369 --> 00:03:07.840 It's people, technology, and art all wrapped up into one. 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:09.929 You've got to have strong intuition. 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:10.619 Yeah. 00:03:10.619 --> 00:03:15.310 I, I pull those same skills all the time in my current role. 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:16.900 And I think it's part of what makes me. 00:03:17.285 --> 00:03:22.675 good at the job, but also unique in my role because it is, uh, I'm 00:03:22.685 --> 00:03:27.125 drawing on a lot of the same math and art that I did from my gaming days. 00:03:27.325 --> 00:03:28.425 Well, that is so cool. 00:03:28.425 --> 00:03:32.664 And congratulations on Twilio and your role there and congratulations 00:03:32.665 --> 00:03:34.414 on kicking butt at Vanta now. 00:03:34.415 --> 00:03:36.995 And like, We pretty much want to unpack that a little bit. 00:03:37.025 --> 00:03:41.475 So can you take us back to when you joined Vanta? 00:03:41.575 --> 00:03:42.785 Why did they bring you in? 00:03:42.795 --> 00:03:43.475 Yeah. 00:03:43.545 --> 00:03:46.375 So I came in early last year. 00:03:46.375 --> 00:03:48.955 So March ish of 2022. 00:03:50.245 --> 00:03:55.215 And As I was leaving Twilio, I was really looking for three things in 00:03:55.215 --> 00:03:56.755 the company I was going to join. 00:03:56.765 --> 00:04:01.175 One was really clear, strong product market fit. 00:04:01.674 --> 00:04:04.375 And Vanta had delivered on that in spades. 00:04:04.785 --> 00:04:09.045 It was a company that was a rocket ship that had just tremendous 00:04:09.054 --> 00:04:10.865 inbound demand and interest. 00:04:11.425 --> 00:04:14.775 And so that one was a clear checked box. 00:04:15.425 --> 00:04:18.885 The second was I wanted to join a company that was ready to scale. 00:04:19.305 --> 00:04:22.705 So not just something that was like good in a single product thing, 00:04:22.915 --> 00:04:27.435 but truly a company that was ready to become more of a platform and 00:04:27.465 --> 00:04:29.335 grow to that next level of scale. 00:04:29.375 --> 00:04:33.265 Vanta had raised a Series A, was on the precipice of raising the B, 00:04:33.594 --> 00:04:38.495 you know, was north of 30 million in ARR, but like had that vision 00:04:38.505 --> 00:04:40.755 to get to a hundred million in ARR. 00:04:41.065 --> 00:04:44.535 It was that run I wanted to go on and help take company on. 00:04:44.965 --> 00:04:47.205 And the third was an incredible. 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:49.050 partner in the CEO. 00:04:49.340 --> 00:04:55.300 I wanted to feel great, both just from a personality standpoint and 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:59.200 intellectually and from a value standpoint that we were aligned, that 00:04:59.200 --> 00:05:02.420 I had a great partner and somebody I wanted to work with for years to come. 00:05:02.450 --> 00:05:05.539 And I found that in Christina Casioppo, CEO. 00:05:05.539 --> 00:05:06.850 She's the founder of Vanta. 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:09.270 She created the product from scratch. 00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:10.230 She created the market. 00:05:10.260 --> 00:05:17.070 So when I entered, Vanta was coming off this incredible run through the Series 00:05:17.070 --> 00:05:23.870 A, huge growth, 100 percent inbound, a sales team and a CS team that really had 00:05:23.880 --> 00:05:29.389 no segmentation, it was just the sales team, and they took anything inbound, 00:05:29.429 --> 00:05:34.920 there was very little outbound, and a couple of things had changed over 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:39.500 the, the, Six months that led into my joining and the biggest of those is 00:05:39.500 --> 00:05:46.320 we had a ton of copycat competitors come on the scene and those copycat 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:50.179 competitors were extremely aggressive. 00:05:51.050 --> 00:05:54.399 They came to market because they saw how strong the product market fit was, how big 00:05:54.400 --> 00:06:00.020 the opportunity was, and they essentially came to market specifically to take us on. 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:02.560 So team's confidence was a bit shaken. 00:06:02.860 --> 00:06:05.870 We had folks on the scene with really strong marketing, trying to make 00:06:05.870 --> 00:06:09.360 a lot of noise and really trying to come and undercut us on price 00:06:10.159 --> 00:06:12.890 and just win logos at any cost. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.409 And it was a, it was a real moment for the team to figure things out. 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:18.409 It's a compliment to what you all did. 00:06:18.689 --> 00:06:21.469 You know, it's like you created this category and. 00:06:21.739 --> 00:06:22.590 It's attractive. 00:06:22.799 --> 00:06:27.630 And you said there were a lot of, how many came in, how many 00:06:27.989 --> 00:06:28.309 copycats? 00:06:28.419 --> 00:06:35.580 As of today, we count 43 distinct copycat competitors in the space. 00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:37.450 And it's a huge range. 00:06:37.489 --> 00:06:40.650 We see all different types, but really they have all come to market. 00:06:40.969 --> 00:06:44.969 with a copy of Vanta's original product, which is such a testament 00:06:44.969 --> 00:06:48.380 to what Christina built and the opportunity she identified here. 00:06:48.770 --> 00:06:53.909 There are a couple, there's like a cohort of three or four that have managed 00:06:53.909 --> 00:06:55.499 to get a certain amount of traction. 00:06:55.779 --> 00:06:59.870 And at the time I joined, there was one in particular that was extremely aggressive, 00:07:00.169 --> 00:07:06.429 had clearly used and had access to our product and copied it screen for screen. 00:07:07.450 --> 00:07:10.849 Uh, yeah, like this is going to happen if you're successful. 00:07:11.110 --> 00:07:14.600 There are going to be people who copy your product, reverse engineer 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:16.680 it and charge half the price. 00:07:17.425 --> 00:07:20.965 So you better have the strategy, the playbook, the 00:07:20.975 --> 00:07:23.665 competencies to continue to win. 00:07:23.775 --> 00:07:27.015 I remember at HubSpot, like one, I don't know, year four, maybe, 00:07:27.954 --> 00:07:32.675 you know, we, one of our, the main incumbents out there bought one of 00:07:32.675 --> 00:07:37.715 our competitors and started selling it for a dollar a year subscription. 00:07:38.925 --> 00:07:42.705 I think our average price was maybe like, I don't know, 8, 000, 10, 000 a year. 00:07:43.495 --> 00:07:48.625 That was tough, but if you've done your job, you will work your way through that 00:07:48.625 --> 00:07:50.355 and continue to capture market share. 00:07:51.010 --> 00:07:53.030 So let's continue on and hear how Stevie's done that. 00:07:54.140 --> 00:07:57.480 Basically copied the website, just came straight at us. 00:07:58.030 --> 00:08:01.549 And the proposition was, we're just as good, but we're a lot cheaper. 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:05.010 And that's what I was facing coming in. 00:08:05.030 --> 00:08:10.229 In fact, that competition was so intense that when I received an offer to join 00:08:10.229 --> 00:08:16.675 Vanta, One of those competitors, uh, investors got wind of it and actually 00:08:16.675 --> 00:08:21.485 directly tried to attack me with FUD and get me not to join the company. 00:08:21.795 --> 00:08:25.024 That's how aggressive they were and directly trying to take us on. 00:08:25.125 --> 00:08:25.445 Wow. 00:08:25.455 --> 00:08:26.534 It has been a journey. 00:08:26.544 --> 00:08:29.784 And you know, the truth is, every, but every great investor 00:08:29.784 --> 00:08:31.215 will ask you, what's your moat? 00:08:31.245 --> 00:08:32.635 Like, what do you have that? 00:08:32.689 --> 00:08:34.100 Protects your business. 00:08:34.169 --> 00:08:39.500 And, you know, I'm a big believer that strong execution is the only real 00:08:39.530 --> 00:08:42.199 moat that you can build in many cases. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:43.380 Yeah. 00:08:43.380 --> 00:08:48.090 I mean, if I can humbly maybe disagree a little bit with Stevie on the 00:08:48.090 --> 00:08:52.810 importance of moat, I agree in the sense that like, you don't always need it. 00:08:54.170 --> 00:08:58.950 And you could outpace it, but if you have it, it's a huge advantage. 00:08:59.450 --> 00:09:03.620 And if you want to read like the work that I always rely on with Mo is an old 00:09:03.620 --> 00:09:08.730 school work by Michael Porter and Porter's five forces and his work on barriers 00:09:08.760 --> 00:09:14.240 to entry, but essentially though, like she kind of is saying they had a Mo and 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:15.630 we're going to unpack that in a second. 00:09:15.630 --> 00:09:19.400 Like they had multiple years of experience ahead of the customer. 00:09:19.400 --> 00:09:20.980 They had a better product. 00:09:22.090 --> 00:09:25.840 And so the Mo test that I encourage entrepreneurs to think about is. 00:09:26.675 --> 00:09:30.214 This is a great idea and you've had good traction. 00:09:31.975 --> 00:09:39.115 What if five amazing engineers from Google quit, got a 10 million term 00:09:39.115 --> 00:09:44.055 sheet from Sequoia and copied your product and sold it for half the price. 00:09:45.604 --> 00:09:46.584 Why do you still win? 00:09:48.354 --> 00:09:49.405 That's the moat test. 00:09:49.484 --> 00:09:51.375 It's not like, Oh, we have this particular feature. 00:09:51.375 --> 00:09:54.015 Then it's like, well, how long would it take them to build that feature? 00:09:54.575 --> 00:09:55.645 I don't know, three months. 00:09:55.835 --> 00:09:56.025 Okay. 00:09:56.025 --> 00:09:57.725 Well, that's not a sustainable moat. 00:09:58.845 --> 00:10:00.465 So just think about that a little. 00:10:00.465 --> 00:10:04.854 And we hear specifically with Stevie and Vanta on how they leaned into that. 00:10:05.135 --> 00:10:05.885 Let's get back to her. 00:10:06.954 --> 00:10:10.415 And so this has been a journey that we are still on. 00:10:10.905 --> 00:10:15.944 And the first move really was starting to rebuild. 00:10:16.185 --> 00:10:16.854 Confidence. 00:10:17.605 --> 00:10:21.094 And so there are a lot of tactical things you can do to 00:10:21.094 --> 00:10:22.604 rebuild confidence on the team. 00:10:22.604 --> 00:10:26.385 But the truth is, when you have a sales team, confidence matters. 00:10:27.045 --> 00:10:30.915 They have to truly believe that they're bringing to market the best product. 00:10:30.925 --> 00:10:35.354 And that's one of the first things we did was, okay, let's do some education. 00:10:35.755 --> 00:10:39.255 We had to overcome this idea that the right thing to do with 00:10:39.255 --> 00:10:41.194 ankle biters is to ignore them. 00:10:41.575 --> 00:10:43.435 We had ignored them for several months. 00:10:44.215 --> 00:10:48.695 And it's good in theory, because you don't want to become distracted, you don't want 00:10:48.695 --> 00:10:53.965 to be pulled off the path by these ankle biters, but in ignoring them, we allowed 00:10:53.965 --> 00:10:58.355 them to get a foothold they never should have had, because the truth was, we did 00:10:58.355 --> 00:11:04.385 have the best product, we did have a multi year lead, we were the most innovative. 00:11:05.089 --> 00:11:09.110 And when we ignored them, we allowed them to redefine our story for 00:11:09.110 --> 00:11:13.510 us in a way that wasn't true and to out market us at that point. 00:11:13.760 --> 00:11:15.210 And that was a huge mistake. 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.189 So rebuild confidence was number one. 00:11:17.369 --> 00:11:19.639 Does a customer care about a multi year leader? 00:11:19.640 --> 00:11:20.309 Was that more just. 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:22.359 You're all confident. 00:11:22.430 --> 00:11:26.689 There's a story in there that your team has to tell to customers. 00:11:26.719 --> 00:11:28.939 And the answer is customers should care. 00:11:29.419 --> 00:11:32.659 They won't unless you explain to them why it matters. 00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:38.189 And in our case, it mattered because many of our customers use our 00:11:38.189 --> 00:11:41.709 platform at Vanta to become compliant. 00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:47.119 Often that's to become compliant with standards like SOC 2 or ISO 27001. 00:11:47.930 --> 00:11:50.649 That's not a one time event. 00:11:50.699 --> 00:11:54.199 It is a multi year journey that evolves. 00:11:54.199 --> 00:11:58.050 It's this security maturity journey that we help our customers go on. 00:11:58.689 --> 00:12:02.749 And at Vanta, we had been at that for several years, so we knew what year 00:12:02.749 --> 00:12:04.349 two looked like for our customers. 00:12:04.349 --> 00:12:09.980 We knew what year Three looked like and that helped define what we built 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.080 so we could help our customers avoid those pitfalls at the beginning of that 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.439 journey of becoming secure and compliant. 00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:20.910 Our competitors didn't even know what year two and year three looked like. 00:12:20.929 --> 00:12:22.370 So they couldn't build for it. 00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:29.640 So while they had at the time, what looked like a flashier UI and, you know, a nice, 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:32.439 splashy marketing website, the truth was. 00:12:32.885 --> 00:12:36.985 Deep down in the weeds of the product, we knew we had built to help 00:12:37.005 --> 00:12:39.145 our customers be more successful. 00:12:39.735 --> 00:12:45.314 It is shockingly hard to convince buyers, even when you have the better product. 00:12:45.324 --> 00:12:49.274 And we, we faced that problem because a lot of these 00:12:49.274 --> 00:12:50.315 competitors came on the scene. 00:12:50.315 --> 00:12:51.644 They had great marketing to your point. 00:12:51.645 --> 00:12:53.054 They had a flashy demo. 00:12:53.094 --> 00:12:57.324 They, uh, really cherry picked proof points that made it look like they were 00:12:57.324 --> 00:12:59.545 growing much faster than they really were. 00:12:59.865 --> 00:13:02.704 The thing we finally landed on that worked. 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:07.420 Was a handheld trial guided by our S. 00:13:07.420 --> 00:13:07.580 E. 00:13:07.590 --> 00:13:07.760 S. 00:13:08.310 --> 00:13:11.990 where we allowed prospects to do a seven day. 00:13:12.029 --> 00:13:15.050 Try it before you buy it with three S. 00:13:15.050 --> 00:13:15.270 E. 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.569 driven check ins. 00:13:17.069 --> 00:13:21.170 So 1 of the things we knew is that a lot of these competitors did not have 00:13:21.189 --> 00:13:23.280 the ability to do a trial at all. 00:13:23.330 --> 00:13:27.600 So they had technical blockers and we use that to so far to say if they 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.460 won't let you try their product, what are they actually hiding? 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.120 It's all sizzle, but there's no, there's no meat. 00:13:34.084 --> 00:13:38.374 And then two, if they did in the rare case, let them do a trial, they would 00:13:38.535 --> 00:13:41.844 see because they spent more time, the depth of product, they would see 00:13:41.844 --> 00:13:43.775 the quality was better with Vanta. 00:13:44.415 --> 00:13:47.784 So that move doubled our win rate. 00:13:48.175 --> 00:13:53.165 So when we run a trial, we went from about a 35 to 40 percent win 00:13:53.165 --> 00:13:56.994 rate, depending on the month to more like a 70 to 80 percent win rate. 00:13:57.645 --> 00:14:00.245 And that was a game changer for us. 00:14:00.275 --> 00:14:05.335 It also started to address that issue on our team of confidence, because then 00:14:05.335 --> 00:14:09.855 they saw when prospects actually try the product, they also tell us ours is better. 00:14:10.305 --> 00:14:13.755 And so it was this like, Oh, I guess it really is better. 00:14:13.935 --> 00:14:16.925 Like we believe now because the prospects are telling us that 00:14:16.925 --> 00:14:18.765 was a key inflection point. 00:14:20.055 --> 00:14:23.475 This is a key point to highlight for a variety of reasons. 00:14:24.055 --> 00:14:24.565 First. 00:14:25.070 --> 00:14:28.350 Yeah, you might have the easiest to use product. 00:14:29.170 --> 00:14:33.700 You might have the best product, but it's really hard for the customer 00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:37.620 or buyer to understand that if you're only relying on a demo. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:43.300 Even though you out engineered them, they can out demo you. 00:14:44.370 --> 00:14:50.970 And relying on a trial really helps to mitigate that risk and align your 00:14:51.070 --> 00:14:53.150 sales process with your strength. 00:14:53.939 --> 00:14:55.300 Whether that's ease of use. 00:14:55.855 --> 00:14:58.815 Best product, best design, whatever. 00:14:59.455 --> 00:15:00.665 Stevie does a great job here. 00:15:01.435 --> 00:15:05.375 The other thing that I want to highlight is how well she and 00:15:05.385 --> 00:15:07.295 her team are executing the trial. 00:15:08.605 --> 00:15:13.664 All too often, salespeople think, I put the buyer in the trial, the 00:15:13.665 --> 00:15:14.885 product's going to sell itself. 00:15:15.825 --> 00:15:16.775 It doesn't work that way. 00:15:17.705 --> 00:15:21.785 Before you put them in the trial, you needed to find success. 00:15:22.435 --> 00:15:27.185 Yeah, we can do a seven day trial, but what is it that you will 00:15:27.225 --> 00:15:28.625 see after the seven days trial? 00:15:29.430 --> 00:15:31.100 that will make you buy this product? 00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:32.969 And do I have your commitment? 00:15:34.150 --> 00:15:39.110 That's a key scaffolding around the trial experience. 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:47.640 The other aspect here, the other technique here is what we call a give get, where 00:15:47.890 --> 00:15:53.570 we are happy to give things to the buyer, but we need to get things In exchange 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:58.910 of equal value, a seven day trial with all these sales engineers is a big give 00:15:59.310 --> 00:16:04.660 the get I could ask back is, do I have access to your CFO to go through an 00:16:04.670 --> 00:16:10.090 ROI presentation after, do I have your verbal commitment that you will sign this 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:12.500 contract and Stevie and her sales team. 00:16:13.025 --> 00:16:15.125 Are executing these trials exceptionally. 00:16:15.125 --> 00:16:16.895 Well, let's get back to her. 00:16:17.865 --> 00:16:21.645 Step two was the move to a value based sale. 00:16:22.275 --> 00:16:29.474 So coming in, uh, to Vanta, the sale itself, there wasn't really a methodology 00:16:29.474 --> 00:16:34.474 in place, the conversation, because there had been so much demand in such product 00:16:34.474 --> 00:16:38.385 market fit, generally when prospects were coming inbound, it was sort of like. 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:40.980 Vanta, do you do what I think you do? 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:41.580 Yes. 00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:42.010 Great. 00:16:42.010 --> 00:16:42.680 Let's go. 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.050 And it was a quick lots of one call close. 00:16:46.060 --> 00:16:47.880 Very short sales cycle. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.209 We really didn't have to do a lot of objection handling until 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:55.370 all these other players came on the market and we grew in size. 00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:00.049 When that dynamic changed, we had to up our game. 00:17:00.689 --> 00:17:08.240 So, I took the team through what is an ongoing journey from no methodology in a 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:14.180 very feature function based conversation towards med pick for deeper discovery. 00:17:14.690 --> 00:17:19.809 We were moving off of very basic band and we found that like the ability 00:17:19.810 --> 00:17:23.020 to have that value conversation with our customers and prospects 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:26.790 is now another differentiator and a thing that sets us apart from the 00:17:26.790 --> 00:17:29.600 competition who are lots of sizzle. 00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:35.810 But very basic discovery, not a value based sale today before that exercise. 00:17:35.850 --> 00:17:38.130 It was incredibly simplistic. 00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:41.530 And I think if you would have asked many folks on the team, it would be. 00:17:41.530 --> 00:17:44.240 Why do companies come to Vanta? 00:17:44.929 --> 00:17:46.130 And the answer would be. 00:17:46.879 --> 00:17:51.550 Well, it's to get, it's to complete the SOC 2 process and get that SOC 2 report 00:17:52.040 --> 00:17:55.300 at the end, but that's not really the why. 00:17:55.569 --> 00:17:59.220 And what we had to challenge ourselves to do in that room, and it was 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:04.345 shockingly hard, was to get to the root of, Why do they care about SOC 2? 00:18:05.014 --> 00:18:07.945 What are they really trying to achieve? 00:18:08.435 --> 00:18:12.014 And at the heart of that, there are really only a few things 00:18:12.014 --> 00:18:13.554 that businesses care about. 00:18:14.145 --> 00:18:18.815 Grow revenue, reduce costs, and reduce risk. 00:18:19.744 --> 00:18:25.465 And so as a team, we spent three days locked in a room talking about connecting 00:18:25.465 --> 00:18:33.064 those dots of if a founder comes to us and they are pursuing SOC 2, are they doing it 00:18:33.634 --> 00:18:36.174 Mainly because they want to grow revenue. 00:18:36.225 --> 00:18:36.725 Yes. 00:18:36.924 --> 00:18:38.275 What does that look like? 00:18:38.614 --> 00:18:42.105 And who's asking them to prove their sock to compliant? 00:18:42.114 --> 00:18:46.134 Why does that person care if our customers talk to compliant? 00:18:46.424 --> 00:18:47.975 So we had to get to the heart of that. 00:18:47.985 --> 00:18:49.574 And then it's how do they measure it? 00:18:49.725 --> 00:18:50.524 What does that mean? 00:18:50.524 --> 00:18:51.205 So if they get. 00:18:51.475 --> 00:18:55.975 If they complete that process and they pass the SOC 2 audit, uh, what 00:18:55.975 --> 00:18:57.405 is it going to do for their business? 00:18:57.405 --> 00:19:00.735 Well, it means they can probably sign enterprise customers now. 00:19:01.055 --> 00:19:04.514 And if they complete ISO 27001, it probably means they can 00:19:04.515 --> 00:19:07.764 expand internationally and do business outside of the U. 00:19:07.764 --> 00:19:08.054 S. 00:19:08.485 --> 00:19:10.785 So it was about then quantifying that. 00:19:10.795 --> 00:19:12.935 What did it mean in terms of ROI? 00:19:13.425 --> 00:19:17.745 And then what customer case stories, case studies and stories do we have? 00:19:18.209 --> 00:19:20.939 To explain how we've done that for other businesses. 00:19:20.959 --> 00:19:23.659 So we had to get out of that very tactical, like, Oh, well, they're 00:19:23.719 --> 00:19:27.320 coming to us for SOC two into the world of what does that really do for them? 00:19:27.329 --> 00:19:28.100 Why do they care? 00:19:29.849 --> 00:19:30.800 That's fantastic. 00:19:30.800 --> 00:19:33.989 And I'm trying to like, um, as we translate that into actually the 00:19:33.989 --> 00:19:39.100 frontline conversations, can you try to like summarize and like what the 00:19:39.100 --> 00:19:41.740 first like 90 seconds to two minutes of. 00:19:42.435 --> 00:19:47.325 The first sales meeting sounded like before this, before you came in and 00:19:47.325 --> 00:19:51.754 then what did the first like 90 seconds or two minutes sound like after you 00:19:51.754 --> 00:19:54.825 got the team kind of along the lines of where you wanted them to be? 00:19:54.885 --> 00:19:55.455 Yeah. 00:19:55.455 --> 00:19:59.604 The conversation before was much more facts and figures, you know, 00:19:59.615 --> 00:20:01.695 forecast was purely numbers. 00:20:01.765 --> 00:20:03.045 It was this week. 00:20:03.085 --> 00:20:03.775 We're going to close. 00:20:03.945 --> 00:20:05.415 200, 000. 00:20:06.034 --> 00:20:09.564 And, uh, my level of confidence is 60%. 00:20:10.185 --> 00:20:14.635 And it was very, very, um, focused on what we thought we were going to bring in. 00:20:14.645 --> 00:20:18.355 And then what, what you see from that, and this is very typical is 00:20:18.375 --> 00:20:20.105 it becomes completely unpredictable. 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:22.985 So, you know, you're calling numbers, but like your 00:20:22.985 --> 00:20:24.655 confidence is all over the place. 00:20:24.685 --> 00:20:28.495 You see numbers slip, you see deals push, nobody can really nail down why. 00:20:29.225 --> 00:20:29.635 So. 00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:34.660 Moving that into this value based framework with deeper inspection, 00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:40.510 it becomes much more deal specific with a focus on compelling events. 00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:42.190 So the conversation is now. 00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:45.020 Yes, here's the number I'm calling for the week. 00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:47.350 We've got more nuance in that. 00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:48.860 Here's what I can commit to. 00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:50.850 Here's my outside best case. 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.090 And here's my most likely forecast. 00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:57.590 This happens a lot for ultra successful companies. 00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:00.420 She's talking about, they had all these inbound leads. 00:21:00.470 --> 00:21:04.689 They did a pretty surface level demo that probably wouldn't score 00:21:04.689 --> 00:21:09.830 high in the generic efficiency scoring of a sales team. 00:21:09.850 --> 00:21:11.440 And yet they were crushing it. 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.090 Many people would frame that as like, 00:21:16.415 --> 00:21:17.034 And that's great. 00:21:17.044 --> 00:21:20.955 If you can get yourself order taking, you've done a great job with your 00:21:20.975 --> 00:21:26.545 product, with your strategy, but almost always it runs out at some point. 00:21:27.524 --> 00:21:30.504 And whether it's the competitions coming in, something changes in the 00:21:30.504 --> 00:21:33.614 product, something changes in the macro conditions, whatever it is, and it's 00:21:33.665 --> 00:21:39.304 certainly changed for Vanta and that forces us to become a better sales team. 00:21:40.375 --> 00:21:43.105 She's also talking about MedPick and Bant. 00:21:43.624 --> 00:21:46.574 And just so you have a definition there, you can look these 00:21:46.584 --> 00:21:48.034 things up, but MedPick is. 00:21:48.625 --> 00:21:52.195 They're both sales qualifying matrices. 00:21:52.785 --> 00:21:58.665 They are a cheat sheet for a seller to make sure they're gathering all the 00:21:58.665 --> 00:22:04.865 information and to score how likely this person is to buy based on this criteria. 00:22:05.534 --> 00:22:08.264 So BANT stands for Budget Authority Need Timing. 00:22:08.685 --> 00:22:10.465 To Stevie's point, simple. 00:22:11.105 --> 00:22:17.385 I think it's fine for like transactional MQL driven mid market inside sales. 00:22:18.315 --> 00:22:24.235 But if you're going to want to make the leap to more complex sales, a higher level 00:22:24.265 --> 00:22:27.345 sales motion, often used for bigger deals. 00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:32.700 Something like a med pick is better and that stands for metrics, economic buyer, 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.919 decision criteria, decision process, paper process, implicate the pain, 00:22:39.270 --> 00:22:41.750 champion, and the competitor's champion. 00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:42.899 Let's get back to Stevie. 00:22:44.110 --> 00:22:47.279 I like to focus on that most likely forecast, start with the top 00:22:47.289 --> 00:22:51.955 deals, and then the conversation is What gives you confidence that 00:22:51.955 --> 00:22:54.015 they're going to sign this week? 00:22:54.035 --> 00:22:55.845 Why is there urgency? 00:22:56.365 --> 00:23:00.014 Does this, does this unlock something for them that's 00:23:00.024 --> 00:23:01.905 meaningful in the broader business? 00:23:01.905 --> 00:23:05.885 Who are the other stakeholders that have to sign off before that gets done? 00:23:06.224 --> 00:23:10.864 And do you understand the conversation that's going to lead them to sign? 00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:12.560 And why might they not? 00:23:12.860 --> 00:23:16.520 So it's a lot more deal centric, and it's around those compelling 00:23:16.520 --> 00:23:18.179 events and the reasons why. 00:23:22.719 --> 00:23:26.609 Talking Too Loud, hosted by Chris Savage, is brought to you by the 00:23:26.609 --> 00:23:31.260 HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. 00:23:32.159 --> 00:23:37.290 On this podcast, Chris Savage, Wistia CEO and Loudest Talker, takes you 00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:41.250 inside the minds of entrepreneurs as they share the hilarious, 00:23:41.370 --> 00:23:46.010 informative, and most challenging aspects of building more human brands. 00:23:46.804 --> 00:23:50.284 You can hear episodes like building a reusable notebook empire with 00:23:50.284 --> 00:23:55.514 entrepreneur Joe LeMay or the AI video revolution with Wistia's own 00:23:55.525 --> 00:23:57.324 head of production, Chris Levine. 00:23:57.924 --> 00:24:01.044 Listen to talking too loud, wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:06.095 --> 00:24:10.615 Let me try to play like a very service level salesperson as I've been in that 00:24:10.995 --> 00:24:12.985 situation, Stevie, as many of us have. 00:24:13.424 --> 00:24:15.755 So they're like, Oh yeah, those are good questions, Stevie. 00:24:16.155 --> 00:24:18.455 So they need to become SOC compliant. 00:24:18.955 --> 00:24:21.415 The person I'm talking to said it's urgent. 00:24:21.415 --> 00:24:22.735 They need to have it done next week. 00:24:23.125 --> 00:24:25.975 And they told me that they're the decision maker and they just need to give this 00:24:25.975 --> 00:24:27.205 to legal and then they'll sign it. 00:24:27.255 --> 00:24:27.895 So I think we're good. 00:24:28.475 --> 00:24:28.775 Yeah. 00:24:28.775 --> 00:24:30.835 So the next question is why is it urgent? 00:24:32.815 --> 00:24:34.165 Well, they told me they have to have it next week. 00:24:34.335 --> 00:24:35.135 Do you know why? 00:24:36.965 --> 00:24:37.225 Beautiful. 00:24:37.715 --> 00:24:37.975 I love that. 00:24:38.045 --> 00:24:39.454 You just keep going, 00:24:39.455 --> 00:24:42.744 you keep going, you know, and like the why often won't be there. 00:24:42.745 --> 00:24:44.084 And that's where you got to go deeper. 00:24:45.205 --> 00:24:45.565 Yeah. 00:24:45.905 --> 00:24:50.145 And you, I know you mentioned that when we were talking about this ankle 00:24:50.145 --> 00:24:55.455 biter strategy, not only was it the transition to the value based messaging. 00:24:55.805 --> 00:25:00.765 But embedded in there was the mobilization of the frontline 00:25:00.885 --> 00:25:03.905 sales manager to make that happen. 00:25:04.185 --> 00:25:05.355 Force management's great. 00:25:05.364 --> 00:25:07.894 Their co founders are part of my fund that consider them friends. 00:25:07.895 --> 00:25:08.375 They're awesome. 00:25:08.375 --> 00:25:09.565 I love their methodology. 00:25:10.764 --> 00:25:14.244 At the same time, like just sales training in general is known for 00:25:14.245 --> 00:25:17.695 like a 10 percent retention rate in terms of knowledge capture. 00:25:18.025 --> 00:25:19.905 And it's that frontline manager that. 00:25:20.300 --> 00:25:22.630 You need to, to mobilize. 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:23.280 How'd you do that? 00:25:23.340 --> 00:25:23.970 Yeah. 00:25:24.120 --> 00:25:28.729 So this really, we had some lessons learned out of this. 00:25:28.729 --> 00:25:32.470 When we got right out of the gate, we had, you know, the fast start program 00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:36.340 off the back of the training and folks were rolling through it and we 00:25:36.340 --> 00:25:37.909 found exactly what you're describing. 00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:40.700 This, there was this sort of like, Oh yeah, great training. 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:41.670 And then move on. 00:25:42.425 --> 00:25:47.725 It wasn't until we got the frontline managers fully bought in on why 00:25:47.725 --> 00:25:50.675 this matters and we had to come back to our success criteria. 00:25:50.675 --> 00:25:54.834 So for us, mission one was to increase our win rate. 00:25:55.185 --> 00:25:59.054 There was a point in time where confidence was at a low and these 00:25:59.054 --> 00:26:03.555 competitors that all showed up, we were only winning at 24%, right? 00:26:03.595 --> 00:26:04.775 And it was way too low. 00:26:04.775 --> 00:26:06.805 And it put us in a position where we weren't going to have 00:26:06.825 --> 00:26:08.275 sufficient pipeline to hit targets. 00:26:08.925 --> 00:26:13.845 So bringing the managers back to This matters because it is going 00:26:13.845 --> 00:26:17.325 to increase your win rate and it's going to put your team in a position 00:26:17.325 --> 00:26:19.595 to actually hit target was one. 00:26:19.615 --> 00:26:23.505 So they have to understand it's not just another, another training checkbox. 00:26:23.645 --> 00:26:25.354 Like this is going to move your numbers. 00:26:26.675 --> 00:26:28.405 That frontline sales manager is key. 00:26:28.820 --> 00:26:31.520 It's not just about training the sales person. 00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:36.149 You're going to go a lot more horsepower on training that frontline sales manager 00:26:36.870 --> 00:26:40.879 on coaching and reinforcing what you want that frontline sales person to do. 00:26:41.230 --> 00:26:43.819 I've heard the three wise, I've heard the five wise, but it's 00:26:43.820 --> 00:26:45.260 like, you're almost a two year old. 00:26:45.270 --> 00:26:46.790 They're like, okay, why do they want to buy? 00:26:47.050 --> 00:26:48.570 Well, they're trying to get sock compliance. 00:26:48.570 --> 00:26:48.830 Okay. 00:26:48.830 --> 00:26:51.340 Why do they want sock compliance while they're trying to get 00:26:51.340 --> 00:26:53.060 into a new part of the market? 00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:53.530 Okay. 00:26:53.530 --> 00:26:55.940 Why are they trying to get into the new part of the market? 00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:58.029 Well, they've got to put up bigger growth numbers. 00:26:58.029 --> 00:26:58.259 Okay. 00:26:58.260 --> 00:27:01.310 Why do they have to put up bigger growth numbers while their stock 00:27:01.310 --> 00:27:04.130 is falling into a value stock and they want it to be a growth stock. 00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:04.380 Okay. 00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:08.030 Why do they want, well, their value, their, their valuation multiple is 00:27:08.030 --> 00:27:09.750 going to go from three X to seven X. 00:27:09.770 --> 00:27:10.240 Okay. 00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:11.680 Now we're getting somewhere. 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.179 And of course, as a seller, you can't just be like, why, why? 00:27:15.514 --> 00:27:15.945 Why? 00:27:16.155 --> 00:27:19.014 In a way you're doing that, but you're just sounding like a human. 00:27:19.314 --> 00:27:22.054 And as a sales manager, I'm asking the same things. 00:27:22.064 --> 00:27:27.915 I'm sort of like role modeling what I want the salesperson to say to the buyer. 00:27:28.414 --> 00:27:30.204 And as a sales director, I'm doing the same thing. 00:27:30.204 --> 00:27:33.734 The sales manager was like, Hey, why did you forecast that thing at, at stage two? 00:27:34.004 --> 00:27:37.554 Well, because they wanted their pioneers, the SOC compliance. 00:27:37.554 --> 00:27:37.794 Okay. 00:27:37.794 --> 00:27:38.425 Why is that? 00:27:38.764 --> 00:27:42.635 And as the CRO, I'm asking the same question to see, to the sales directors. 00:27:42.925 --> 00:27:44.125 So you see how this is happening. 00:27:44.610 --> 00:27:49.130 There's this like hierarchy pyramid effect that all the way at the top, 00:27:49.620 --> 00:27:53.640 you are reinforcing what you want that frontline behavior to look like. 00:27:54.370 --> 00:27:55.430 All right, let's get back to Stevie. 00:27:56.390 --> 00:28:01.199 And then two was arming them with a framework and holding them 00:28:01.230 --> 00:28:03.950 accountable for the same information. 00:28:04.410 --> 00:28:07.910 And part of that is through reinforcement in that weekly forecast. 00:28:07.910 --> 00:28:11.639 We're asking, as leadership, the same questions of the frontline managers that 00:28:11.639 --> 00:28:13.760 we're expecting them to ask of the team. 00:28:14.070 --> 00:28:18.010 They're expected to know that urgency in their book of business and the why and 00:28:18.029 --> 00:28:23.160 understand, like, they need to be able to prove they have run MedPIC on these deals 00:28:23.170 --> 00:28:24.940 and that they're deep in their deals. 00:28:25.590 --> 00:28:30.340 And you've got to reinforce that in a repeatable process. 00:28:30.340 --> 00:28:33.235 So they know And expect to be on the hook for it. 00:28:33.775 --> 00:28:36.145 And then you've got to build it deep into your systems as well. 00:28:36.145 --> 00:28:39.365 So you've got to have a framework that reinforces these concepts. 00:28:39.755 --> 00:28:43.395 We, in fact, we're, you know, almost a year out now from the initial 00:28:43.395 --> 00:28:47.695 training, we just launched the next phase of this, where we're building much 00:28:47.724 --> 00:28:52.445 deeper reinforcement into Salesforce, into our CRM and into the way we 00:28:52.445 --> 00:28:54.855 collect data about opportunities. 00:28:55.215 --> 00:28:58.915 So it's always in the water, but those frontline managers. 00:28:59.210 --> 00:29:02.490 If they're not bought in, it will fail and it will just become another 00:29:02.500 --> 00:29:04.620 training that people forgot about. 00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:10.439 Now, I know a lot of folks when they move into this ankle biter competitive selling, 00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:13.480 they rely on discounts to close deals. 00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:17.099 Did you all lean in there or what, what did you, how was your feelings about that? 00:29:17.110 --> 00:29:22.895 Yeah, this has been a battle because the ankle biters Have 00:29:22.895 --> 00:29:25.834 gone so cheap and they still do. 00:29:26.104 --> 00:29:31.294 They're still going to this low cost motion because the play particularly 00:29:31.294 --> 00:29:36.155 around the ankle biter that has gotten the most traction has been 00:29:36.854 --> 00:29:38.955 rather than focusing on revenue. 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:43.920 They've just focused on logo wins, and so they're willing to win 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:47.650 logos at any cost when, when we're actually not, because we're trying 00:29:47.650 --> 00:29:49.210 to build a sustainable business. 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:53.950 So, you know, we did go through a long phase of just say, okay, we're 00:29:53.950 --> 00:29:55.290 just going to match the pricing. 00:29:55.290 --> 00:29:57.570 Whatever the competition offers, we'll match it. 00:29:57.579 --> 00:29:58.879 We've got the better product. 00:29:59.139 --> 00:30:01.249 We had, you know, some of our stronger salespeople, maybe 00:30:01.249 --> 00:30:02.359 they wouldn't quite match it. 00:30:02.369 --> 00:30:06.429 They go a little bit above, but they get close and, you know, we released. 00:30:06.495 --> 00:30:08.315 We, we implemented deal desk. 00:30:08.315 --> 00:30:09.395 We got rid of deal desk. 00:30:09.395 --> 00:30:10.345 We said, all bets are off. 00:30:10.345 --> 00:30:11.525 Just go in, just go in. 00:30:12.045 --> 00:30:14.145 And we've really now come around. 00:30:14.145 --> 00:30:17.294 Now that we've got the strong value based sale, we've rebuilt confidence. 00:30:17.955 --> 00:30:26.094 We are able to command a premium and we have re implemented tighter controls here. 00:30:26.095 --> 00:30:26.784 Yeah. 00:30:26.784 --> 00:30:27.474 99. 00:30:27.955 --> 00:30:31.635 9 percent of the time, a reliance on discounts. 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:32.990 Not good. 00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:38.150 It's a band aid for lack of sales excellence. 00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:43.450 The only exception is if you truly strategically are the 00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:45.560 low price player in the market. 00:30:45.589 --> 00:30:47.669 But that rarely happens in software. 00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:53.909 I know the classic business school cases are things like Walmart or Amazon, where 00:30:53.910 --> 00:30:57.580 they literally can afford to sell products at a lower price than the competition. 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:02.130 In those cases, because of their economies of scale and their economies of scope. 00:31:02.580 --> 00:31:03.980 We rarely have. 00:31:04.315 --> 00:31:10.205 Those situations in software, we have to sell value and reliance on 00:31:10.205 --> 00:31:13.245 discounting is a symbol of weakness. 00:31:13.375 --> 00:31:15.395 Good for Stevie for moving them away from that. 00:31:15.975 --> 00:31:16.785 Let's get back to her, 00:31:17.905 --> 00:31:23.460 but it's always a dynamic discussion because We still want to win. 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:27.580 We don't want to allow them to, you know, take this cohort of folks who just 00:31:27.580 --> 00:31:31.370 want the cheapest thing out of the gate because there's tremendous opportunity 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:34.720 and a multi year journey that we want to build on with those prospects. 00:31:34.869 --> 00:31:38.779 So we believe there's a huge amount of value in a strong ROI here. 00:31:39.189 --> 00:31:43.280 So it's that delicate dance and we're really just reassessing on 00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:44.800 a monthly and quarterly basis. 00:31:45.350 --> 00:31:46.960 Are we going too far with discounts? 00:31:47.050 --> 00:31:49.000 Should we go a little bit farther than we have? 00:31:49.310 --> 00:31:52.450 And, you know, you've got to be agile to respond to the market there. 00:31:52.780 --> 00:31:57.170 Well, I've learned a lot here, and I'll tell you that it is a 00:31:57.190 --> 00:32:00.090 compliment if ankle biters arrive. 00:32:01.739 --> 00:32:06.050 You've done something great with your vision, with your startup, to 00:32:06.050 --> 00:32:07.990 create a category that's attractive. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:11.495 In this case for 43 companies to comment. 00:32:12.085 --> 00:32:15.265 And I love the knowledge that you dropped on us today. 00:32:15.705 --> 00:32:18.875 If you are in that situation on how to offset it, Stevie, thank 00:32:18.875 --> 00:32:20.445 you for taking the time to do that. 00:32:20.715 --> 00:32:21.914 Thank you for having me. 00:32:21.915 --> 00:32:25.735 It's a been such a great opportunity and I'm grateful to 00:32:25.735 --> 00:32:27.005 have the chance to speak with you. 00:32:35.235 --> 00:32:38.085 Today's episode is written and produced by Matthew Brown. 00:32:38.455 --> 00:32:39.774 Our show is edited by Matthew Brown. 00:32:41.525 --> 00:32:44.885 Big thanks to HubSpot for Startups and to the HubSpot Podcast 00:32:44.935 --> 00:32:46.625 Network for keeping the audio on. 00:32:46.855 --> 00:32:50.704 Hey, also we're a new show, so if you like what you hear, or if you hate what 00:32:50.704 --> 00:32:54.374 you hear, leave us a rating and review over on your favorite podcast player. 00:32:54.385 --> 00:32:55.265 I love the feedback. 00:32:55.690 --> 00:32:57.310 Also, check out Stage 2 Capital. 00:32:57.520 --> 00:33:03.290 We're the first VC firm running back by over CCOs. 00:33:03.780 --> 00:33:07.040 So if you're an entrepreneur looking to scale your business, check out stage2. 00:33:07.080 --> 00:33:07.370 capital. 00:33:07.850 --> 00:33:09.090 All right, that's it for today. 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:10.100 I'm Mark Roberge. 00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:10.720 See you next week.